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  • April 02, 2024 11:06
April 02, 2024 11:06
Dear collectors,

I would like to offer a number of duplicate objects from my collection for sale in my webshop at Lastdodo. However, it is not clear to me why I, as a private individual, need to prepare an invoice and should I be charged VAT? As a private individual you are not liable for VAT, and certainly not if you offer an object from your own private collection for sale second-hand. Although I can understand that there is a difference when selling as a private individual to a trader who will sell this item again and at a higher price..., compared to a transaction between private individuals? I now wonder what the correct working method is, and how this is applied at Lastdodo?
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April 02, 2024 13:25
timbremediacollectie
It calls an invoice. It is an overview of what you sell to a specific buyer, with a total, and an indication of how the buyer can pay the amount due.
As a non-professional, nothing like VAT is involved.

With the (recently amended) legislation, you have to be careful that you stay below a certain amount or number of sales. Otherwise, the government will regard you as a professional salesperson (in a secondary profession) and that can have dire consequences.
If you want to know the ins and outs of this, you have to look on the internet, with a legal advisor or with an accountancy firm. It doesn't keep me awake.
Anyone who occasionally sells something worth a few euros does not have to worry about it, of course.

All sales sites have a duty to pass on information to the relevant authorities.
So it doesn't matter whether you sell a lot on one site or a little on many sites. The state neatly puts it all together.
You shouldn't underestimate those guys.
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  • April 02, 2024 14:33
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April 02, 2024 14:33
Raoul62 Most sellers on LD are not professional only collectors Rene may I suggest not to use the word invoice as other plateform don’t use it but an other words like « Order » as the word « Invoice «  is only to use for a company or a registered professional rather than a person selling its collection for very small amounts. In Belgium that can cause us trouble and it is the same for Dutch collectors.

Is it possible to use an other word than invoice on LD, please take care of us. If no change I must consider as a Belgium citizen to stop selling on LD and as I use my new small sales on LD to buy on LD shops only I will have to stop to buy on LD too as my budget to buy is strictly related to buy on LD shop , that what finance all my orders on LD.
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April 02, 2024 15:18
Tomayto-tomahto.
Do you want the term "Shop" also to to be changed?
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  • April 02, 2024 15:22
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April 02, 2024 15:22
Boekenmagazijn shop is ok. Just Invoice could be change to « Order » is it a problem. Perhaps in Netherlands an individual can send an invoice but not in Belgium, Raoul62 as you live in Belgium sell here some stamps what is your opinion ? 
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April 02, 2024 16:11
Well, it is not allowed as a private individual.
But if it says 'Receipt' from now on, the professional shops (real shops) will get into trouble. After all, they have to use 'Invoice'...
For me it is simply a piece of paper on which the purchases are summarized with the payment instruction (e.g. account number).
A private individual will probably never experience any problems if such a sheet does say 'Invoice'.
A trader will always have problems if there is no 'Invoice' on it.

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April 02, 2024 16:33
Rene
You could call the current invoice 'Order Confirmation'. Where a seller has the option to send a new (additional) copy that does include an invoice. The seller decides whether an additional invoice is sent. After all, he/she knows best whether he/she is acting as an entrepreneur or as a private individual.
You can't do anything wrong with 'Order Confirmation'.
With the option to issue an additional 'invoice', your site will not get into trouble. If the seller, who is an entrepreneur, doesn't do it... then that's his/her problem.

Sometimes an invoice must be issued, sometimes it is allowed, and sometimes it is not allowed at all.

The basic requirement for issuing an invoice is that the seller does not act as a private individual, but as an entrepreneur (must also be registered as an entrepreneur).
If the buyer is also an entrepreneur (not acting as a private individual), there must be an invoice.
If the buyer is a private individual, he or she can request an invoice (must then be delivered).
If the buyer purchases the goods with a view to trading them, then I believe an invoice is also mandatory. In that case, the buyer must request an invoice from the seller. It does not matter that the buyer is not in compliance (not registered as an entrepreneur). That is not the seller's problem at least, but it is the buyer's problem (if the government determines so).

If the basic requirement is not met, there can never be an invoice.

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  • April 02, 2024 16:35
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April 02, 2024 16:35
Ok Raoul62 but I was right on the fact that an individual in Belgium have no right to send an invoice. The solution for the shop should be to have à configuration to choose between 2 status : Individual (no invoices) or Pro (invoice), other platforms deal like that. What do you think about this solution Rene ? 
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April 02, 2024 16:50
Frenchstamps
It's not that simple. An Invoice must state the VAT rate and the amount of VAT separately. The current bill on LD does not do that.
By renaming the current invoice to 'Order Confirmation' you have already eliminated a pain point (problem).
The big problem is of course that if an invoice must/may be drawn up, it must also meet all legal requirements. And I doubt whether those requirements are the same in all countries around the world.
There are free online programs that allow an entrepreneur to draw up an invoice.
Anyone who is really professional in sales (whether they are stamps, banknotes, books or comics, it doesn't matter) usually has an invoicing module in their accounting program.
Anyone who uses the margin scheme as a professional seller may also be able to manage with the current content of 'Invoice' on LD.
The problem of 'preparing a real invoice' has thus been partially solved.

Whether LD wants (or can) provide the (additional) option for drawing up a real (legal) invoice ...
Perhaps for Belgium and the Netherlands (I don't immediately see many differences). But what if a seller from Canada or the United States sells something to a South African, and an invoice is required... What should such an invoice look like?

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April 02, 2024 17:01
I cannot find any information anywhere about a formal ban on private individuals (in Belgium) sending an invoice.

An invoice must (in the Netherlands) meet a number of requirements, such as stating the company name, VAT number and Chamber of Commerce number. You can only do that if you have a company.
An invoice without this information is legally invalid, but that does not mean that you as a private individual will get into trouble if you send something like that to another private individual. After all, you are not liable for VAT, so it is not relevant for your tax return.
You can call it a receipt, but that term actually stands for a proof of payment that you send afterwards.

As Raoul already noted, it is not possible to include VAT on an LD invoice. Because business sellers have to process them in their administration, these invoices are actually unusable for them.
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April 02, 2024 17:22
Boekenmagazijn I agree with Raoul62 instead of invoice the document sent after an order is accepted should be 'Order Confirmation' not at all called an invoice and pro can edit an invoice after payment if they want using their own system to file internally for accounting according to countries rules.
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April 02, 2024 17:39




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  • April 02, 2024 17:40
April 02, 2024 17:40
Thanks for all your useful information! It has now become a lot clearer to me what people mean by invoice here, and how I should deal with it as a private individual.
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April 02, 2024 17:51
" tomayto-tomato".
Why look for nails at low tide?
In other words: don't make a problem of something that isn't a problem.
Don't think that a "Belgian citizen", a Dutch citizen or a citizen from another country has ever known/had problems.
As a buyer or as a seller.
As a private individual or as a professional.
Because it says 'invoice' on that 'piece of paper'.
In the more than 15 years that LastDodo (and previously Catawiki) has existed.?
The only thing that matters for father state (Belgium, the Netherlands or other countries) is that everything is 'indicated' correctly.
The professional trader therefore declares all his sales. Also from his physical store or through other channels (fairs, flea markets).
I have yet to receive the first invoice for comics I bought at a fair/flea market...
And in physical stores you often get a 'ticket'.
Yet with relatively small amounts that are also paid immediately.
Or do you ask for an invoice at the store where you bought 100 stamps for 5 euros?
Amount that you cannot deduct from your tax return?
Not as a private individual anyway.
After all, the invoice often has the function of 'evidence'. At the tax authorities.
Also depends on what you buy and what it is intended for.
Both pro and private.
Private?
Declare more than 2000 euros in your tax return,
And LastDodo will let you know that, right?
And the tax authorities then determine whether you pay taxes on it or not.
So they may or may not consider you a trader. as a professional seller.
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April 02, 2024 17:51
Raoul62 so now how LD can modify and find a solution for the individuals. Waiting for a solution and that Rene take an action to implement the right solution for all individuals here as other plateform do to comply with this problem. Personally on one other plateform your receive just an order acknowledgement with the amount to pay no invoice or receipt. 
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April 02, 2024 18:19
buizer
As a private individual you cannot and are not allowed to issue an invoice. If you create a document with the words 'Invoice' on it, it is an invalid document. An invalid document also has no legal validity . Because you (as a private individual) are not liable for VAT.
Has nothing to do with the tax return, but with the VAT return.
You pay taxes on income (profit, wages, etc.). You pay VAT on added value, as a VAT liable person (registered). You recover the VAT you pay on purchase, and you transfer the VAT you charge on a sale (to the buyer) to the VAT administration.
Unless you are approved for use of the margin scheme. That's a completely different story.

In the old days, a very long time ago, a private individual could create an invoice when selling, for example, a second-hand car. The buyer then had to pay the VAT amount due with that invoice at the VAT administration counter (and not to the seller). That hasn't been the case for decades now.
If something else is stated on the document (not an invoice, not a receipt and not a receipt) then there is no problem. Now… actually, yes. More than a piece of trash even if you ask me.
Simply Order Confirmation or Order Confirmation.
The current documents cannot be used as invoices for business sellers (registered entrepreneurs), because the taxable amount, VAT percentage and VAT amount must be included separately on an invoice. And the entrepreneur number / VAT number of the entrepreneur. That's an invoice.
An advertising brochure is also an advertising brochure and not an order form.
Just is just. The law applies to everyone.
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Rene
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  • April 02, 2024 18:43
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April 02, 2024 18:43
Thanks for the suggestions.
We'll think about it for a moment.
As far as I know, this is something that - in the 16 years that the collection platform has existed - has never been reported as a problem before. So there is no reason to panic :-)
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April 02, 2024 18:58
Rene you need to consider that 16 years ago all was cooler from a legal point of view in Europe now from 2020 rules are apply very strongly and now for an individual creating an invoice is strictly forbidden and it it is really a easy thing just to replace the word « invoice «  by Order confirmation «  as say Raoul62  it will even not at all be a problem or investment to do that quickly.

Nothing to do with VAT or DAC7 the only problem is that it is just forbidden as an individual to produce and send a document call an invoice.

Rene I am sure that you will find a solution quickly. To avoid any problems I ptrfer now immediately to close temporarily my shop waiting you solve this urgent matter.  
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April 02, 2024 19:04
Raoul62 I have close temporarily my shop the time that the LD team suppress the word invoice to comply as an individual to Belgium law. I will reopen when the LD team will modify all that.
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April 02, 2024 19:11
Raoul62
'Just is just'.
And you are indeed right.
Just wanted to show/say.
In 15 years there have never been any problems; why would they suddenly be there now?
Or are they going to punish me/put me in jail because I use the option to send an 'invoice' via LD?
Is LastDodo's role at shops not only that of a platform/intermediary?
Because in those 15 years, not a single correct 'invoice' has been sent by a pro salesperson because not all mandatory information is stated...
And all private sellers have not issued valid invoices...
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April 02, 2024 20:01
LD is a company (economic enterprise). If a company determines that there is something that does not comply with the legislation (explicitly prohibited), it is advisable to respond appropriately. An entrepreneur does not hesitate, but takes the appropriate measures to ensure continuity.

The company may safely provide the service of drawing up invoices, but:
1. then those things must be legally OK (with regard to the content and form);
2. users are not forced to create documents that they are not legally allowed to create (a private individual is not allowed to provide invoices, you must have a VAT number to do that). Now, as a (private) seller on LD, you have no choice. You must send the invoice via LD, there is no other option.

It's bizarre that this has never been discussed with all those critical users... :)
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April 02, 2024 20:46
You must send the invoice via LD, there is no other option.
That is not true.
As a seller, you will receive an email from LastDodo with the title "An order has been placed with your shop on LastDodo". If you click on the link you will be taken to the page with the order, where all the contact details (including email address) of the buyer can be found at the top right.
No one forces you to send an invoice, you can also simply send the buyer an email directly with the total amount and your bank details.
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April 02, 2024 20:49
PS Raoul62 thanks for the references, Google apparently gives different results for you than for me.
It's just a shame that the legal repercussions are not explained anywhere.
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April 02, 2024 20:56
Raoul62 Frenchstamps buizer
I don't think it is allowed, even in the Netherlands, for private individuals to draw up invoices with VAT.
It doesn't matter what you call such a form, as a private individual you may not include VAT on it. Whether you call the email/document Invoice, Invoice, Receipt, Order Confirmation, etc., does not matter. This is all possible for private individuals, as long as no VAT is stated on it.
In order for an invoice accepted by an accountant and tax authorities to be included in the administration, it must meet certain requirements, as Boekenmagazijn also indicated. Now things are being turned around by stating that it is forbidden to send anything so that the customer can pay the bill.
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April 02, 2024 20:57
Raoul62
Ok, all correct too.
But this is all getting a bit too 'inflated'.
Rene has also indicated that it only appears after 16 years (and not 15 as I indicated).
And don't tell me that they don't know LastDodo at the tax authorities or VAT...
And there will even be LD users 'employed' by the tax authorities or VAT.
That's how ' urgent ' the problem is.
If those users were 'duty-conscious', action would have been taken long ago.
And they had already reprimanded LD for a long time.
Frenchstamps
Rules changed in 2020.
OK.
We are now 2024.
How much stricter have those rules become/changed?
Since no action has been taken yet.
The soup is never eaten as hot as it is served...
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