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  • March 25, 2024 10:14
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March 25, 2024 10:14
To keep things somewhat clear, we are going to talk about the definition of Issue here.
Charles1971 was the first to make a proposal, which a number of people already agree with (to a greater or lesser extent).

The issue field includes everything issued on that date, i.e. self-adhesive or gummed or FDC or combination from a booklet.

Question 1: Does it matter which Country/Area the items come from?
Question 2: Does the date concern only 1 day or does it concern a period?
Question 3: Does this also include reprints/issues and varieties?
Question 4: Does an Issue include all themes or do different themes also give rise to different Issues?
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  • March 25, 2024 11:57
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March 25, 2024 11:57
Maybe first some basics, and then the heated discussion (details) will proceed a bit better?

1. The starting point should be 'main substance' of the stamp category (stamps, blocks, sheets, booklets, postal stationery).
Then the side issue (what was made with it such as EDK, FDC, MK, Occasion Card, Occasion Envelope, ...) follows the main issue.
This allows you to define something more narrowly instead of 'everything'.
A side issue can never be a reason to determine an issue. The bottom line determines.

2. Determine the purpose of the issue field. Why an Issue field? What do we want to achieve with it?
In my opinion: it's easier to find when searching. With the very powerful motor behind it (you can click on it to see the things that belong together in one screen).
Not just to put things in archive boxes or cubicles. A functional utility. A search tool. Where providing an overview is central.

3. The Country/Area does not matter. If you depart from an issue, you can additionally filter by country.
If you depart from another country, there is automatic filtering.
Example:
Starting from the issue, you get 76 items in '1984 WWF'. You can further filter by country. Perfect.
If you are looking at a detail of an item from 1984 WWF of Gambia, and you click on the issue, you will see a screen for 1984, Gambia, WWF. 13 items. Perfect.

4. Specifications that can be indicated in separate fields, which provide you with a filter, never lead to separate issue names.
Why? You unintentionally limit the result so that a user cannot see the appropriate item in the overview offered for that issue.
Do you only want the items that meet such a specification in an overview? Then use the filters!
E.g. An issue for just the FDCs, or an issue for just the imperforate stamps, or an issue for just the imperforate stamps from a block. This division undermines the purpose of point 2.

5. For the sake of overview, an issue can be split by an administrator based on period. After all, long-term issues over 30 years no longer meet the basic objective.

I think the creative idea of expanding the issue name, which starts with a year (or 0000 if the year of issue is unknown) to a period if necessary (e.g. '1984-1986 xxxxxxx') is an excellent addition. As long as the first 4 positions (for sorting purposes!) are recognisably a year (or 0000).
[ The use of 0000 mainly has another reason, which I have tried to explain several times (the issue names and the automatic translations that have been wrong for more than 10 years). Difficult subject matter, and nerve-wracking work to keep up. In other words, please don't start discussing that 0000 in this thread. It is what it is: a necessity]

1 to 5: that's already a basis...
If we can agree on that, I think we are halfway there.

It is of course an opinion (or vision). Other opinions, views or perspectives can also be good. As long as they offer a functional use ( added value ) and are easy to understand and explain.
EVERY collector who has the stamp section should be able to get started with it with minimal explanation.
What is described above as an approach is also fully compliant with what the manual now states.
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March 25, 2024 12:02
Bad example: I recently reoriented this issue . No longer corresponds to Michel. who cares?
The 4 stamps, issued at different times but for a limited period, are now together.
As they are in most preprint albums that are also included together. There's a good reason for that. Shaubeck, Davo, Lindner, ... there is also some thinking behind that sometimes.
By including them in one issue, they also appear nicely together (as far as the selection period can contain them) when the sorting is set to 'Issue'.
There is no other way you can get those things together if you split them over multiple issues.
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  • 198 messages
  • March 25, 2024 15:13
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March 25, 2024 15:13
Collectioneur Raoul62 my only contribution will be a practical one, when we enter our stamps in LD  collection and most of stamps collectors have it in pre prints albums and they are all together so they do entry from pre prints albums page by page so it will be a nightmare to use LD as a tool to enter our collections if we manage differently of pre prints albums.

Usually for some very specific series that are issue during long periods (10 years and more) you got also specific extra pages with a beginning date and a end date ) on preprinted albums.

As a user of LD I am against any change as LD catalog to manage my collection is the best tool existing, we need to avoid that it will be worst. 

What solution : to have like now the standard view tab in the catalog that don’t change as it is perfectly what 90 % of user need and to manage to have all item issue related to standard stamps with filters on an other tab call advanced with specific filters for the 10 % advanced collectors. 

I am sure that if we make a poll not limited to the forum the majority doesn’t want any changes , why to change what that work ok ?
  • 184 messages
  • March 25, 2024 15:13
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March 25, 2024 15:13
Question 1: Does it matter which Country/Area the items come from?

As long as you can select a country within the issue, it only provides additional options for finding joint issues.


Question 2: Does the date concern only 1 day or does it concern a period?

I think more than one day is the current situation. Then it will only be a matter of time before you have the current discussion again.

This led to the current arbitrariness: 10 stamps issued in ten months within one year, one issue, two times five issues at two times in one year, two issues, and a total of eight issues, while below the image the stamps from number 11 to 52 are simply numbered.


Question 3: Does this also include reprints/issues and varieties?

What is a variety? Postal authorities generally do not consider a technical change (gum, perforation, watermark) as a variety. In many cases, therefore, no release date of the variety is known.

There are advantages and disadvantages to bringing varieties under one publication.

Take the so-called British 'Wildings' as an example: three watermarks, three types of phosphor, one type of phosphor applied in two widths, graphite stripes, graphite stripes and phosphor, three deliberate color changes, two types and often within a collection of all those properties over a period of time covers more than one year. Not to mention the 'Machins'.

An advantage is that it is easier to find all varieties of a stamp.


Question 4: Does an Issue include all themes or do different themes also give rise to different Issues?

Stamps that are considered an issue by the postal service, but have various themes, will be next to each other in the catalog due to the time of issue. Bringing different themes under one issue unnecessarily binds you together and will lead to a discussion about which themes are relevant.

The centenary of person
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  • 198 messages
  • March 25, 2024 15:36
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March 25, 2024 15:36
Esquerdo Collectioneur Raoul62 
Issue for current stamps are over 1 years and usually concern current value postage stamps that are heavily use and issued mainly for postage rather than stamp collectors. These value are of use usually during 5 to 10 years and more with new value to follow new rates. Nothing to do with theme as all stamps of a series that is issue for a current postage usage are the same theme like Machin 

The printing numbers are very big , at least for small to medium facial value and usually the design is the same as the engraver. Because of the variety of usages , rates, colors and use of numerous printing batches over years you got minor or major errors , booklets with or without advertising covers or type of covers but nothing  created specifically for stamps collectors except some few blocks or sheets or FDC.

This is a subject of interest for few specialists collectors that will study each batch printing like the same stamp printed in October 1982 and later in January 1983 and Mai 1983 with some minor differences.

The big mistake will be to consider the stamp issue as a matter of study to put on LD catalog  (there are specific catalog or studies only on Machin type, French sower type) and just to consider all declination of a serie.

My proposal to reach a consensus : 

In the advanced filter an idea can be to create a filter category that bring an overview of all the big series like Machin, Semeuse Sower ….. and to make the decision to apply it only on series issues during 5 years as a minimum or even 10 years.  Hat do you think of this solution ? 
  • 184 messages
  • March 25, 2024 16:22
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March 25, 2024 16:22
Frenchstamps, what you are proposing is another name for the proposal of a 'series' in addition to 'issue' and maintains the complete arbitrariness of 'issue'. I also see the advantages of that 'series.'

It also strongly assumes that 'large series' are uniform. But there too you can find several examples of the opposite.

It also raises the question of what 'large series' are.

United Kingdom, 'Millennium' 1999 - 2001 usually four stamps per day with a common theme, but no unity in the design at all.
Spain, 'Landscapes and Monuments,' 'Coats of Arms of Provincial Capitals,' 'Painters,' 'Followal Costumes' and 'Monasteries and Convents.'
Netherlands: summer stamps 1935 - 1947.
The series from the last two countries have uniformity in shape and design. This uniformity is similar to that of many modern long-running series.

Four "issues" that fall apart if you limit the definition to any time period within a calendar year are #646817 , #646821 , #651497 and #651659 . And that's not all. However, I expect that the 'buts' will then be presented in droves and one exception after another will be created.

The above is in contrast to the traditionally regarded as series 'Queen Isabella I and El Cid' and 'Franco and El Cid', which comprise different designs, of which one design appears in different issues.

The source of the discussion is precisely the broadening of the concept of 'issue' by adding a time element other than a day, which is arbitrary unless you are anchored in the Gregorian calendar, and even then is simply not applied consistently.
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  • 198 messages
  • March 25, 2024 17:51
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March 25, 2024 17:51
Esquerdo 

Taking into account what you wrote that is right , we need to brader série définition and see how we can manage that.

My broader possible definition of a serie as stamps can be issues the same day or at different day during the period were the postal rates is of usage, size or design can differ in the serie according that facials are current postage rates during a period. 

Note that stamps of a serie are not made with the aim to create them for collectors but to cover all postage rates publish in the postal regulations of each country during a period of time.

Note also that the serie remain but can be split in sub series  I , II if there are a complete new rates for a new period with or without a minor variation in design or even an overprint to change value for a specific historical event like a change in money or rates (because of war…) but no time to print a new serie so it is not a new serie just a serie III or IV ….

What do you think ? 
 
it is very broad but a collector that study particularly all what is related to a serie over time , period, history want to view all item at different period of a serie. 

This mean that stamps issued for collectors not for practical usage of sending letters or parcel covering all rates of a period are not series. Mostly all modern stamps of most countries that have a normal mail service have series that enter into this definition, not the small island or countries that issue stamps for money to sell them to collectors and have no proper mail services.

The question behind that is why do I need to an an overview of all a serie including booklets, pre cancel, stamp revenue, regional issue ? Because it is interesting to study as a postal service history with evolution of rates and usage within a serie made only to have a postal usage.
  • 184 messages
  • March 25, 2024 18:30
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March 25, 2024 18:30
Frenchstamps, I think this is unnecessarily complex. I don't understand the need to create all kinds of groups. The series can show collectors the entire context. The issue can show which stamps have been issued together without creating all kinds of extra rules with their hundreds of exceptions, so that no one understands the criterion anymore.

It is not a given that all stamps from a long-running series can be assigned to individual rate periods. Replenishment values will be able to circulate throughout the life of the series. Not every rate needs to be changed every time.

In Spain you had three rates: A, B and C. In 2021, a D rate was introduced for a number of countries. While the first three rates changed, the D rate has remained unchanged since its introduction.

I also wonder who has been helped by having to first study the rate structures before knowing whether something belongs in I, II, ..., or MDCXLVIII.
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  • March 25, 2024 18:31
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March 25, 2024 18:31
There is no other way you can get those things together if you split them over multiple issues.

A new field set Raoul62 ?. With this, you can put all the issues together, related to each other of course. A field series does not have to start with a year.
With the field, issuance, you don't have to go international. You can do this with the series field.
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  • 198 messages
  • March 25, 2024 19:16
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March 25, 2024 19:16
Esquerdo Sorry I am a very old school philatelist that was trained to understand rates first and their usage. Moreover the definition of series in French philately is not universal at all.

I know nothing about stamps after 1940 and modern stamps are not for me I am afraid so my definition is  certainly not the best to find an easy solution, certainly Raoul62 and you or Charles1971 should find better solution than an old school philatelist.

I prefer to say that for that subject I feel out of game.
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  • March 26, 2024 07:20
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March 26, 2024 07:20
The issue field includes everything issued on that date, i.e. self-adhesive or gummed or FDC or combination from a booklet.
Your basic definition includes 2 things that still need to be refined (correct wording can be further determined on the forum):
- everything issued on that date "and which forms 1 logical whole or theme", postal administrations have the habit of issuing multiple issues on the same day
- Country and Issue are independent of each other (and filterable), so it is possible that the 1984 WWF Issue is on a different date in each country (for information: the old notation with which the country is included in the issue name is slowly being replaced by administrators deleted).
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  • 6 messages
  • April 01, 2024 17:15
April 01, 2024 17:15
Great to have a topic here to clarify this as some inconsistencies can be seen in the catalogue in this regard. Even contradictory changes made by moderators are made.

everything issued on that date "and which forms 1 logical whole or theme",
I would hope the issue will not be restricted to one date (which would break up the 1984WWF), or even one year. Preferably the current rule is applied:
For long-term series whose stamps must stand together as a series, you enter only one year, namely the year in which the first stamp of the series was issued.
For example, I like to be able to have the German Time Travel series in one overview to track all available stamps in the series. However, this change was overwritten by Charles1971. Even country Netherlands (usually most up to date) has some multiyear (2013 King Willem-Alexander), some by year (2022/2023Typically Dutch) and some by topic (the many Experience nature issues).

I can imagine making an exception for something like Europa stamps, not to have to assign issue 1995Europe to current stamps. And would have a preference of cutting up other international series too. For example, 2016 Chinese New Year, is a rather random issue with all countries issue of 2016 and all PostNL issues (PostNL started their series in 2016). This means, it is not easy to find all 2024 issues of the year of the dragon. (Here, I was overruled in the opposite direction by schipper53 ).

One more side effect to address: the default sorting being by issue, the combining of multi year (as per current rules), introduces a weird ordering. For example after filtering for NL after 2016, I would not expect to start with all Willem Alexander stamps before listing the 2016 stamps.
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April 01, 2024 17:45
banknotes
If you filter NL by 2016, and sort by 'Issue', it seems normal and logical to me that the items from issues with ' 2013 ' in the name are shown earlier than those with ' 2016 ' in the name.
2013 comes before 2016.
If you want them by NVPH catalog code, sort by 'Local Catalog'.
If you want them chronologically, sort by 'Seal date of issue'.

Isn't the latter a good thing? Then add the missing date data 'month' and 'day') where necessary. Items are still being added for which we know all catalog numbers and catalog values, but are apparently ignorant of the date of issue. If only the year has been entered, you cannot sort things by issue date. That date must be fully known.
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  • April 01, 2024 18:01
April 01, 2024 18:01
it seems normal and logical to me that the items from issues with ' 2013
Assuming, one knows the LD definition of issue only. Best not to cater only to expert users. An issue also suggest to when the stamp was issued. The point was therefor about having it as default.
If you want them by NVPH catalog code, sort by 'Local Catalog'.
I use NL as example because LD is quite Dutch orientated and NL is often best up to date. The behavior is there for all countries, your solution is not.
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April 01, 2024 18:12
Another side effect that needs to be addressed: the default sorting by issue, combining multiple years (under current rules), introduces a strange ordering.
That's why I overwrote it #10106003 banknotes . The order in the annual overview is then no longer correct, with different years in the issue. I would also like to see time travel together, just like many other German series. But this is not the way.
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April 01, 2024 18:15
your solution is not

No, not my 'solution'. This is how it works on LD. This is how it was made (years ago). Not by me, but by the then responsible super administrator(s).
There would have been an animal that has become RTBF for several years now. That's all I know about it, and I don't want to know about it either.
That's all from long before my time.

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  • April 01, 2024 18:20
April 01, 2024 18:20
But this is not the way.
Charles1971 If you check the guidelines, it is:
For long-term series whose stamps must stand together as a series, you enter only one year, namely the year in which the first stamp of the series was issued.
Stamps manual page 7
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  • April 01, 2024 18:57
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April 01, 2024 18:57
Indeed, but the idea of starting the issue name with 'YYYY-YYYY Nnnnn' for series spanning several years might be an optimization. Didn't seem like a bad idea to me.

I don't see any consensus anywhere regarding what I proposed as a starting point (functional usefulness for every user), which means that things that belong together must also be kept together through distribution.
In any case: date of issue can never be a criterion in my opinion.


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  • April 01, 2024 19:05
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April 01, 2024 19:05
For long-term series where the stamps must be grouped together as a series, enter only one year, namely the year in which the first stamp of the series was issued.

Top banknotes , then at least all so-called series, for example #9706037 , #10109379 , #8479335 and #8634483 and many others, can be registered as an included series.
By the way, for a fairly new member, you already know a lot about LD. It's admirable.

Now please just wait for the results from the super administrators and we'll see.
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  • April 01, 2024 19:24
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April 01, 2024 19:24
then at least all so-called series can, for example #9706037 , #10109379 , #8479335 and #8634483 and many others, to be registered as an inclompete series.
You must distinguish between Issue and Series. The wording in the Manual may cause some confusion, but I don't think it will be a problem if there are five Series within one Issue, such as 2020 U-Bahn stations , each based on the Issue Date.

(Apart from that, "Series" of course remains an anomaly, which actually has no place within LD. But that's another discussion.)
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April 01, 2024 19:51
And that is why the solution for me is still issuance on that one day. The separate series field (without years) covers the years.
The series item disappears, because a seller can put together a combination sale. In this way, every seller can put together his own series.
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April 01, 2024 20:50
The series item disappears
No, it doesn't disappear.
As an administrator, 'Series' is invaluable. Then you immediately see what is inside and what is missing with the individual stamps. You can place that item with an enlarged image in an additional window next to the LD window on your screen. This way you have an excellent overview.
And also very useful as a user. I have already explained it several times.
Visual search In a country with 600 items in a year: select the series. You have, as it were, a summary of that year (visually).
Please leave series alone. Grrr... waf waf :)

With regard to the stamp section, LD distinguishes itself from another digital catalog in terms of Issue (as far as it is not disguised, and the work is kept within the section) and Series.
The only thing I struggle with is issues with postage and airmail.
3 series is too much. What if there is a series for postage, and one for airmail, and then a full series is added... or vice versa.
I still don't really know what you can/should keep and what you can't. That's the only thing that's not clear about it.

In my opinion, the series item is also completely outside this discussion about Issue.

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April 01, 2024 21:19
I also have no need to address the series item Raoul62 . For me the series item is useless.
Maybe you can give a good definition of the series item?
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  • April 01, 2024 21:26
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April 01, 2024 21:26
This thread is about Issuance.
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