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  • March 23, 2024 11:29
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March 23, 2024 11:29
I could not find the following blocks/sheets on LD





The following issues it appears to be part of:
1969 Landscapes on Lake Balaton
1969 Landscapes at Lake Balaton (I)
1969 Landscapes on Lake Balaton (II)

Can't that be 1 issue or should a new issue be made for each sheet/block?
The latter seems a bit nonsensical to me because of the recent action of merging issues.
Let me know...
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  • 184 messages
  • March 23, 2024 11:34
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March 23, 2024 11:34
ApiSta they are here #6982341
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March 23, 2024 12:08
Yet another good example that underlines my aversion to disguising 'Issue'.
It is best to ask the question 'where should they be added' directly to a super administrator. Otherwise you'll put them wrong. As a regular user you are not smart enough to know whether it is in the issue, the issue with (I), the issue with (II) or a new issue (with (IV), (V), (VI), .. .) have to come.
I wouldn't know anymore... I, II, II, IV,...

One thing is clear. They are neither blocks nor sheets. Well, 'Combination from the book'. This way they are all welcome at LD, no matter what they look like.
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March 23, 2024 12:16
Esquerdo
There are the loose stamps from the booklet and the booklet (accession '(I)').
What I see is that the combinations 'per 2' (duos) are in the issue with '(II)' as an addition.
Logically, the images show combinations of 6, I would think that a new Issue, with the addition '(VI)', should be added.
If that's the thinking behind those issue names...
If not, I'm curious to know what archivist thinking is behind it. We are never too old to learn.
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  • 179 messages
  • March 23, 2024 12:28
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March 23, 2024 12:28
Esquerdo, thank you, but these are single sheets/blocks/combinations and not a complete booklet. I have to say that I hadn't found that book either, so I still learned something :)

Raoul62, thanks too!

So let's immediately ask the question to Helv / postmaster: Where do I leave the above (plural) 'combination from the book'?
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  • March 23, 2024 12:34
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March 23, 2024 12:34
Raoul62, the question arises as to what an issue should be. An example of "issues" that have been indiscriminately merged is #9920715 .

Royal Mail has four issues of the long-running series of the 'Jennings' type:
1. NVIs (without value indication),
2. rate stamps (nowadays the uniform rate for an international standard letter in the first weight class,
3. make-up values and
4. high values (high values, especially for parcel post).

You must order the stamps under 3. and 4. separately. There are two FDCs and two presentation brochures from Royal Mail, one for the stamps under 3 and one for those under 4. Royal Mail also assigns two categories to them. Everything indicates that these are two separate issues. Yet they are lumped together here.
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March 23, 2024 12:58
Esquerdo
Issuance is an (extremely powerful) tool for the user to search/find things. To get a more limited selection on the screen within which the searched item could appear.
Just as filtering by country and year is powerful, but sometimes shows too much (selection too large).
Like filtering by a face value is powerful, but sometimes shows too much.
To make it easy to look up work (look for the stamp, click on issue...).
I see the issue you gave as an example as perfectly useful from that perspective. Not you?
They are things that belong together. A user searches #9920691 and comes across #9920683 . One click on issue and the item you are looking for will appear on your screen in front of you.

If you have an archive instrument in mind with Uitgevers, which only a select group can use to answer 'on demand' to questions such as 'where can I find' or 'where can I post', then you are right. Then an issue of 9 stamps and a series item must be split into 4 issues, each with its own series item.
However, there is no 'Archivarus' function on LD, and there is no ask-as-you-go channel available that is staffed 24/7.
There is only a (limited) email system with which you can ask the super administrators.
You don't have to ask me: I don't understand the archiving mechanism (with the way of dividing, what, when, how, ...) that is not intended as a tool for the users.

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  • March 23, 2024 13:07
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March 23, 2024 13:07
Raoul62 if you extend that argument, then I would expect that there would be consistent action and that #647087 , #647215 , #360051 and many more would also constitute an issue.
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March 23, 2024 13:25
In some cases yes, in others no. An issue should not become unnecessarily large and confusing.
I have to reject many added imperforate stamps, for example, because they are already in LD. However, not at the time of issue, but in an issue with (I), (II) or [Unperforated] in the issue name. Well, then you won't see them if you find the serrated stamp and click on issue. It is logical that these are added again and again.
while perforation is its own field on which additional selection can be made. I have an opinion about additionally including it in another field that is not intended for that purpose.
But that is (again) another story (which has already been discussed several times). Look it up on the forum in March. Guaranteed reading pleasure for a few hours :)

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  • March 23, 2024 13:49
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March 23, 2024 13:49
If the argument is findability, then I cannot accept that two issues that appear almost next to each other in the catalog would benefit from a merger, but if they do not, then not. You'd have to be blind as hell not to find the 'Jennings' 20p when you did find the £5. But if two completely similar stamps with a different value and color were issued in different years, you need to know which was the year of issue to find the stamp.

To make it easy to look up work (look for the stamp, click on issue...).
I see the issue you gave as an example as perfectly useful from that perspective. Not you?

I would say, "No."

It is logical that these are added again and again.
while perforation is its own field on which additional selection can be made. I have an opinion about additionally including it in another field that is not intended for that purpose.

If you don't know that a different perforation was issued ten years ago or later, you won't look for it. That is why in many paper catalogs you will see either an overview or a footnote with comments about variants and sometimes even references.

I think the original question in this thread is a very good example. Some people will immediately think of a stamp booklet when they see the combinations shown, which are serrated on three sides. If you have not seen many stamp booklets with serrated sides, that idea makes less sense. You usually search because you haven't found something yet. The more places you have to search, the more likely you are to stop and consult another source.
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March 23, 2024 14:12
ApiSta The interpretation of issue is usually "what belongs together and was issued at the same time". Although there are sometimes exceptions to this for practical reasons (e.g. 5 values are issued now and value 6 only a few months later, but actually 1 whole, 1 series).
To return to the original question: If all these stamps come from one booklet, who came up with the idea of splitting this up, is there a reason, same issue date, are there perhaps variants in circulation that we want separately? ? As Raoul said, everything is allowed separately for Combination from the booklet, so it is the first time that I see different perforations in 1 item #8107617 . Here too, we would like an answer from our super administrators postmaster Helv .
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March 23, 2024 14:20
That's why it seemed like a good idea to me to add the series field. And do not use the publisher field for this!.
The issue field includes everything issued on that date, i.e. self-adhesive or gummed or FDC or combination from a booklet.
The series field includes all issues, of a series, issued in a specific year and issued over different years. Unfortunately there has been no response.
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March 23, 2024 15:01
Uitissue was the replacement for Reeks. Where Uitgifte offered the space (inherent to the name) to view the whole in a somewhat broader sense.
However, it got scarier and scarier.
As a result, the demand for 'Series' returned as an additional field... where Series would actually mean what the issue was intended for.
That's the tough part of it.
Something enormously good and powerful is being violated and abused to such an extent that something new has to be created to compensate for the lost possibilities and benefits...
There should be a 'Me Too' movement to defend the rights of abused fields lol
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March 23, 2024 15:04
Jummeke #8107617 has not yet been reviewed, as unfortunately applies to many more items. Clearly someone tried to incorporate their favorite catalogue.
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March 23, 2024 15:28
There is no abuse Raoul62 , there are just too few fields. Issue for that one specific date and series for the longer term, possibly running over several years. With a field series, for example, you can put together the flower series from Germany in one go. Or you can also put the entire series together, for example the day of the stamp. Per country through the filters.
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March 23, 2024 15:39
Charles1971 Earlier I also indicated that I was in favor of series. Modern postal services often work this way. Within a number of main themes (series), specific issues (sub-themes) are made one or more times. Philatelistically correct to keep them separate, practically easy to link them.

The major objection is that even though we strive for ease of use, more fields still have to be filled in, which is actually less easy.
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March 23, 2024 15:55
ApiSta you also have the issue
1968 Found landscapes on Lake Balaton ?

On June 24, 1968, 4 stamps were issued with both four-sided perforation and without perforation (8 stamps in total).
On April 15, 1969, 1 stamp was issued with both four-sided perforation and without perforation (2 stamps in total).

At the same time, a stamp booklet was issued on April 15, 1969, which combines 3 stamps from the first issue with stamps from the second issue.

In my opinion there can be no discussion about this and the following two issues should be merged:
1969 Landscapes at Lake Balaton (I)
1969 Landscapes on Lake Balaton (II)
Personally, I think it would be clearer to put [booklet] between square brackets in the issue.

Since the booklet and stamp of 40 were issued on the same day, it may be considered to merge them with:
1969 Landscapes on Lake Balaton

Because the two-sided and three-sided serrated stamps of 0.60, 1 and 2 can also be seen as varieties of the stamps from 1968, it can also be argued that everything belongs to the 1968 Landscapes on Lake Balaton issue.
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March 23, 2024 15:59
The major objection is that even though we strive for ease of use, more fields still have to be filled in, which is actually less easy.

Like many other fields Helv , this field is also not a required field. If you don't know, leave the field blank. A motivated user can then fill in this field. And by motivated I mean having the opportunity.
As mentioned before, this can relieve the burden on the theme field. Think of Postage Stamp Day, Europe stamps, etc.
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  • March 23, 2024 16:23
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March 23, 2024 16:23
We can save on fields. If Type, grade, perforation, color, ... is nevertheless included (between square brackets) in another field (issue) ... is there still a need for those fields?
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  • March 23, 2024 16:33
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March 23, 2024 16:33
Yes Raoul62 there is a need for these fields. How else do you want to filter?
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  • March 23, 2024 16:51
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March 23, 2024 16:51
Helv 
  Since the booklet and stamp of 40 were issued on the same day, it may be considered to merge them with:
 1969 Landscapes on Lake Balaton 
The booklet was issued on May 1st 1969 and not on April 15th, according to  the Philatelia Hungarica catalog.
Why do you deny what's written in the stamps' manual sub 10.2?
 "Stamps with the same perforation that have one, two or three imperforated sides (for example,
stamps of booklets) are not perforation varieties but remain under the type of "stamp". The
completely unfranked stamps are no perforation varieties either
."
Let's be clear:
Three issues shoould be made:
1968 Landscapes on Lake Balaton
(with addition stamp 40 f of 1969)
1968 Landscapes on Lake Balaton [imperforate]
(with addition stamp 40 f of 1969)
1969 Landscapes on Lake Balaton [booklet]
LD #9262241 and #9262245 are doubles

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March 23, 2024 17:04
The booklet was issued on May 1st 1969 and not on April 15th, according to the Philatelia Hungarica catalogue.
The date entered in LD is April 15, 1969. That is the same date as that in Michel. A similar date is included in an online alternative. For Hungary I have no access to other sources.
az60 Do you happen to have any insight into this?

If you make the classification you are now proposing, it would be contrary to the current guideline to add the 40 f stamp to the 1968 issue.
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  • March 23, 2024 18:33
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March 23, 2024 18:33
Helv
Stanley Gibbons mentions that the booklet panes were issued in April 1969, without any exact date.
Philatelia Hungarica:

No problem to leave the 40 f issue in 1969.
But then I don't understand how you're going to transfer stamps from the 1969 booklet to a 1968 issue?
Where's that guide line? 
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Helv
How I look at it without too much knowledge of the more recent stamps of Hungary:
It seems that between 1968 and 1969 there was a change in Hungarian postal rates. Before the 1968 issue of Landscapes at Lake Balaton, the 20 filler value was a regular occurrence. After that release, the lowest value was often the 40 filler. So it seems that the 40 filler issue of 1969 ( 1969 Landscapes at Lake Balaton ) was simply an extension of the stamps issued in 1968, due to postal needs. Because the booklets were also published in 1969, there was no longer a need for the face value of 20 filler. And so they were only released with the 40 filler variant. So you get the combination of the 40 filler stamp from 1969, with the three higher values from 1968. I therefore see it as 1 large emission, which is driven by postal needs.
So I would classify all stamps with the first issue: 1968 Landscapes at Lake Balaton . I agree with Raoul on that point. I also think that's how it works for most stamp collectors. You search until you get something that looks quite similar to the stamp you are looking for. Then you open the issue, after which you will see that you have a choice. A series from 1968, an adjusted value in 1969 and (unfortunately) all combinations from booklets, possibly some FDCs, etc. and some reprints if there are any. That's 1 issue for me. You can compare the items and make your choice. This is how the catalog works. No hassle with (0), (I) and (II), that makes no sense to me. This is how a digital catalog works. Paper catalogs must add a reference number. Lastdodo doesn't even have that. It is about the usability of Lastdodo stamp catalog and not about the dogma 1 issue = 1 issue date. And if you want to remain a dogmatist, change the issue name to another name, e.g. series or something else, so that user-friendliness comes first and the catalog can be used by more people than a number of dogmatists. You still have the Year, Month, and Day fields that put the items in place. And you already have the Series kind, so what more could you want?
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  • 184 messages
  • March 24, 2024 08:57
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March 24, 2024 08:57
I think that the justification for including a 1969 stamp with a 1968 issue if it is a supplement is valid. I certainly agree that this helps with the placement of a stamp. If you know the year, you can search there. If you find a comparable stamp you can search from the issue.

What escapes me is why Hungary would be an exception. Then you must also apply it uniformly.

The catalog is full of cut issues for which the same applies and the design is the same. The latter is not even the case here.

You will also see classifications that show how random issues are created: 10 individually issued stamps in ten months in a year = 1 issue, 2 times 5 stamps in two months in a year from the same series = 2 issues.

There will also be issues for which there is no basis whatsoever: eg, #646811 .
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